www.mattkprovideo.com/2025/07/10/18b/

Okay. Um, well, look, I’d like to discuss the wire taps and Denis or Mariana,do you want to start with like what, you know, a few of the uh excerpts that you think are really interesting and important? Um, yes. Um, of course. Um most of the most of the tapes that I listened to were um conversations between Marina and uh Katya Kate Ford um the family that she was um um friends with and um for hours she’s discussing with Mar with um Kate um situation that she is in um journalists that swarm her house, agents who are trying to get a hold of her uh lawyers. Um her, you know, situation, how lonely she feels. Um she kind of spills her guts to her. Um and also she talks about her opinion on whether um her husband killed the president or not. Okay. Now, do you want to elaborate on some of those conversations or Denise, do you want to join in or how should we do this? Mariana, you might talk about the evidence that they thought they found that would say he did not do it, such as uh the food um etc. Right. Um, in a conversation between Marina and um, Katya, um, Marina tries Marina remembers or or that she she read a lot of newspapers, mostly Russian, because her English was not good enough that mentioned that um, um, Lee um, ran down after the assassination happened. He he he he was seen drinking can’t coke and in the time between the shot and the um the uh the actually when he was seen drinking coke or eating a sandwich um it was too short according to Marina to even you know was just barely enough to buy a can of coke and she believes that it just couldn’t have happened that Lee would have never done it that he was not capable emotionally to calmly drink coke or that he was um uh seen coming into a theater for example. Um and then Katya is trying to um argue with her saying that that’s exactly what she would do if she if she were the if she were guilty. She would try to um to find an alibi to appear not guilty to to calmly have a drink or have a drink to calm down for example. So, um, and then they were discussing a sandwich that he was, uh, um, at the story with the sandwich that there was a halfeening sandwich that was found on the scene. Um, Paul, you remember what it was? The chicken. Yeah, there was a chicken sandwich in a bag next to next to the split snipers net that was another employee had been eating there. Mhm. Well, I the what Mariana is is describing uh is I I would say the only thing we have where they are speculating between themselves as to whether or not he did it or he did not do it. And so they were sort of listing the evidence that he did not do it. You know, one was the Coca-Cola and the sandwich. Um the other and then and then I think Katya Ford says that well why in the world did he go back to the apartment to get the the revolver that that doesn’t make sense. So there were, you know, two or three items there where they thought this might be proof that he did not do it, but then they sort of between themselves realized that there they really don’t have much. And they said, well, it’s it’s not our job to to prove that Lee did it or he didn’t do it. That’s if anyone’s going to do that, it’s Robert, the brother. So that’s my characterization of of of of that um part of the tapes. Is is there anything else on there that would sort of indicate that Marina thought her husband was guilty or or or in or in the way she’s talking? I have to ask Mariana about that. I think that she directly says that she she thinks he did it. I think that there was a there was a line there that she thinks he did it. Um, and then uh there was a hope expressed in the in in one in the conversation later. I think it’s the same conversation where she says, “I I really hope hope maybe maybe he wasn’t the only one or maybe he took the uh he took the gun, but he was not the one who fired the gun.” And then she hopefully asks, “But you know, did they prove for sure that he killed the second that he killed the policeman?” And Kata says, “Yes, he killed the policeman. That was proven.” And uh she said, “But okay, so he’s a murderer, but it would be so much better um to to know that maybe it’s it wasn’t him who shot the president.” And Kata says, “But leave it up to them. It’s not up to you. just and she said it would be better and Katya says of course it would be better not just for you but for the kids and she said yes it would be better for the for the for me and the family if that would not be the case. Yeah. Then that’s a very I think a very important uh part in in that I think in later years Marina’s I actually have a blog post about Marina where she really says you know it’s for it’s really for my kids. So, I really want to prove Lee was innocent for my kids. That’s what that’s was her concern about how this would affect the kids. Yeah. But but she had two children with uh um with Lee and um I think she was a full-time mother based on what what what I’m reading. So most of these conversations are about the kids or discussing the kids or the needs of the kids or yelling at the kids trying to but you know if I could redirect the conversation to another tape that I got from from you guys and that’s the tape of the first interrogation um done by Mike Howard and um I forget the other guy’s name the other secret service guy with my father translating Uh there’s been a whole theory developed and that it emerged out of Moscow I believe there’s a whole theory uh that um Oswald did it but Oswald was really a right winger of the worst sort uh which prevalent in in Dallas and uh that the uh white Russians in the area including my father had combined to create this story uh that my father deliberately mistransated uh the interrogation to uh to say that Lee was not a communist. The worst thing in the world would be if for them if Lee uh proved to be a communist. He’s not a communist. He’s actually a right-winger. and this Gregory guy who was translating mistransated to to create that impression. Uh, and they focus on one word and I’ve not talked to Mariana about this and that was her whether she was able to describe the rifle and they say he deliberately my father deliberately um mischaracterized it as as a a dark weapon. And I thought that was maybe Chumney. Uh, but I want Mariana to listen carefully to that tape because you could hardly hear her speaking. Um, and see what she says when she describes the weapon. As they, as I say, they say that’s that’s the key to explaining uh this uh Oswald was actually a right-winger story. But we’re not talking about the FBI wiretaps. We’re talking about something else. We’re we’re talking about Marina’s uh recordings or conversations with uh um with lawyers, agents, uh uh with right um yeah, a well-wisher who um a lawyer, retired lawyer, right? Who who was which which is incorrect. He was a retired accountant. How interesting. Oh, right. because he was he was saying that he has he had had clients. Yeah. And now he’s not working full-time, so the clients uh he’s working from home. And of course that that story of of Oswald being a right-winger was picked up by Jim Garrison that I see I’ve not read any of that stuff. I I don’t want to waste my time on it. Yeah. So he he made a big deal of the fact that Oswald was not a lefty that he was a right-winger. In fact, Garrison wrote that Ozel would have been more comfortable reading mine comp than Dos Capidal. Mhm. Which is just ridiculous. But that’s that’s Jim Garrison. That’s been picked up by a lot of conspiracy theorists. Well, you can add to that in that I I think this order came directly out of Moscow, right, to change the the narrative and Gus Hall um I think also repeated that narrative. I’m sure being the head of the Communist Party of the US.

Yep. And and this this translation of of of the appearance of the rifle is extremely important in these narratives.

So Mariana, did you try to open that one? No, I couldn’t open it unfortunately. Maybe next time. Oh, I couldn’t open that. I will try to help you. will help you on this. Yeah, I I’m running short on time. Um uh Fred, you had some you had some ideas yourself as to things that were in those wire taps that were significant. Can you go through these? Well, I really haven’t. I’m just I’m wondering if Denise has some other areas that he wants to talk about in terms of on the tapes. Yeah, I I had two or three things, but you I’m being caught off guard. Usually I have to kind of think a while to restore the memory, right? But as I recall, I had two or three things and we’ve really only discussed one of them. Uh but Denise, did you see the fact that everybody was trying to use her um for their own um probably material gain, right? you know, there was a um there there was a family where she lived and uh they you basically um they were getting paid for her. Um Right. Well, she she was loaded with money and uh the um the you know the times and newsweeks of that day were offering her large contracts you know 20 $30,000. In those days that was a lot of money. Yeah. Uh so you know this this um struggle to to get at her money is one of the most impressive things uh in the tapes, but it doesn’t have much to do with uh whether Lee did it or not. That’s right. And I I did not really follow this uh burial issue uh too much. Mariana, do you want to refresh my memory on the the burial? Yes. It was just a conversation between Katya and Marina um about visiting. I think Katya called her on the on the on the um a day when Marina was going to the cemetery to to see the grave and um Kia was just asking how um how does it look the grave? And uh um Marina was complaining that the grave is uh not um not well maintained, you know, that they’re not allowing her to to put flowers in the Slavic Orthodox tradition to put a fence to make it look like um um like a place where she could go and grief. Um and um they they’re discussing what flowers she can plant. She could she could try to she she’s trying to to to make it appear, you know, to to to to uh to make it appear normal, you know, like a normal um sort of normal grieving widow. Um, and it’s um, uh, and then she says that she’s, uh, going to the to the cemetery and that that there is a lot of police there, that they’re guards in the grave because there’s some meeting of protest, a demonstration. Um, so she doesn’t know whether she would be able to get there. Um, and then she comes back and she says that that it just they just don’t let let her they’re not letting her make it normal burial. And what was emotional to me when she said that they even allow you know to bury dogs with dignity and he is you know some people think he is a dog but he he deserves normal funeral.

going back to um this Oswald being a right-winger story. Um I think where there are big returns and and that’s that’s to have a thorough examination of the Soviet documents, you know, which are proliferous. Um I’ve not spent a lot of time with them. You you need to know the Russian to to spend time. Uh, and I thought that would be something that really needs to be to be done. And I’m learning for the first time that one can perhaps go from Moscow to Gust Hall to Jim Garrison. Um, that’s an interesting story in itself. Yes. And in fact, I’ve written about a a possible KGB operation involving Jim Garrison where he accu where there was an article in an Italian communist newspaper about Klay Shaw. And I think that sort of was part of a KGB operation. Do you have the date of it? You I’m sure you do. That was March That was March of 1967. Okay. So wasn’t in the immediate aftermath. No. No. The Soviets had a couple of operations to try and convince Americans that the CIA was behind the assassination or or other right-wingers. Yeah. Yeah. No, that I that I picked up. Uh but I’m and in fact that’s that’s why I really want to see the uh the Russian files that are still in Moscow to see what other operations they were running.

I can’t really recall the sources I used. You know, they were readily accessible as as I recall. Um you know, I I do have to run. It’s a pleasure to meet uh the two of you. Yeah, it was great meeting you. There’s no reason we can’t do this in the in the near future, but I I I don’t want to be late for my appointment. Yeah, I’d love to have another podcast with you to talk about this in more detail cuz uh I I I liked your book. Thank you very much. And Mariana, we’ll be in touch. Okay. Okay. Well, take care. Thank you, Paul. Okay. Deny or is there Marian? Is there anything else you want to add on on the about the uh the wire taps? Yes, there is something um I wanted to ask Paul but I don’t want to delay him even more. Right. Uh that part where he says uh but Marina told Katya maybe Lee didn’t hit the president. He knew better who he was shooting shooting at. Was he talking about Governor Connley or Connelly?

Um that I I I I do not know where is that which tape. Uh that would be um number seven.

Yeah. No, number eight. Sorry. Eight. So Marina says maybe Lee didn’t hit the president. He knew better who he was shooting at. Maybe he was talking about Lee shooting at Governor Connelly, but he missed him and hit GFK instead. Yeah. Is it possible or do you think it’s possible? Well, I don’t I don’t think it’s possible that’s what he was aiming for, but a lot of people have said that. And in fact, there’s a couple of books out there saying that his real target was Connelly because of uh the refusal to change his undesirable discharge. Yes. But I don’t buy it because I think I think that if he really wanted to hit Connelly, he would have then shot while he was uh coming up Hston Street, you know, where he would have gotten a much better view of Connelly as opposed to Shuny Kennedy who was in front of, you know, who was uh I just don’t think it’s that I don’t think it works very well.

Anything else, guys, that we we should discuss? Did Paul keep contact with Marina? Um, not for a while. Not for a while. I mean, he he did at first and then not for the past uh I think 20 years. 30. No, no, not 30, but maybe 10 10 to 20 years. We need to ask him. But yes, of course he did.

Talk to him now. Maybe it would be amazing if he managed to get an interview. H that’s what we have for discussion. Yep. That’s it for me. I don’t have anything else to add. Do you want to add anything? Maria, just one question for me, Mariana. Do you get a sense of of the emot any emotional attachment that Marina had for Lee? Was was there any emotional attachment? Question. Um no. You know, it seemed to me um and that was surprising to me that there there was no, you know, if if there there was no grief over, you know, of a of a young widow over over the, you know, over the over the dead husband, father of her children. Um to me she was quite cold, rather cold towards him or you know and and she does mention in one instance that she does believe that he he was the killer, right? And she wants to hope that not um there’s a lot of attachment to for the kids of course, right? and a lot of interest in in dating and a lot of uh sort of um

binding over the man she had an affair with um the married man that she lived with uh before she moved to to be on her own. Right. Um was it Mckenz right? Um Martin, right? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yes. Sorry. It was Martin. Yeah. So, and a lot of conversations about Martin and how she sees him in her dreams and she doesn’t want to and how he he basically deceived her and how she was trapped in the house. So, emotionally she’s all in that uh new romance and maybe hopes uh to meet someone new, someone else. Like for example, I think um I already um described that when journalists appear on her doorway, uh she’s completely um smitten by those two young men uh reporters who um show up and she complains to Katya that she’s uh um not dressed well. She’s in her pajamas basically with her hair disheveled and she didn’t let them in as she was instructed to not talk to any reporters. But then she dreams and fantasizes about them and about their clothes and how they were dressed in white shirts and polars and uh um you know how she’s tired of men in tuxedos and how they were cute and so she’s only 23 at the time and no in none of the tapes I hear any feelings towards Lee. Hm. Very interesting. Very interesting. If you have questions, I can, you know, I think I can answer questions uh quite um quite easily, but not uh um yeah. Well, thank you, Den. you know she uses you know she uses the words like kite and negro uh in the conversations u for example um you know when the reporters come and the previous reporters I think uh she said that she was polishing floors and she can’t talk to anybody so few hours later different reporters come and they say you know um uh are you still polishing the floors and she said what ka says and what did you say say and Marina says What was I supposed to say that I can’t even, you know, uh, hire a negro woman to polish the floor? Of course, I probably could, but I don’t trust anybody. You know, I just would have to redo it myself anyway if you know, you know how it is. You know, can’t find good help. So, think how how did she use the word [  ] Uh, oh. Um, you know, there was a um there was an agent, I think a book agent who was pursuing her and she was talking to um uh also again Katya um uh about Bou and uh um and this um uh this agent and uh I think uh they were talking about financial side of it and she said you know how these you know these Jews are you know how they are you know it’s all about money And uh and Kata says, “Yeah, I do.” You know, you know, no [  ] You know, they would they’re not they’re not, you know, they don’t necessarily curse except for they do curse once. You know, they discuss other women, they gossip, they discuss neighbors and women who sleep with other men. And so, um and they discuss in Russian how these women are called. And uh uh they use different slang words and they blush and laugh. And so it’s it’s um you know it creates a certain personality for me. Right. Definitely. Okay. Well, thank you very much. Deny, do you have anything to you want to add? No, not to this, but I have something um other than that still related to GFK. Um, I asked Marina Mariana if she’s interested in listening to um one one of the Marina’s Warren Commission testimonies. I have the tape of it and um she and we also have the transcript of it in English. It would be interesting if she could go over the the testimony and tell us if the translation is good because I was told by somebody who speaks Russian that the translation is not very good. Oh, that’s a very good idea. Yeah, sure. One one thing I wanted to add and I think I I said that before, but I was I’m not sure if I said it well enough. Um, Marina was only 23 when when these conversations took place and uh I moved to America 23. you know, it’s it’s a it’s quite a shock to to end up in another country and she ended up completely alone. Yeah. So, and her husband ended up being a murderer. Um, and she believed it. She she knew it and she just maybe hoped that he didn’t shoot at the president, but um, you know, she believed for sure that he shot the cop and um, she didn’t doubt that, you know, he was preparing to take the guns and so forth. And uh when she was alone surrounded by uh people who wanted something from her and she she unders she was aware of it. She was aware of it. You know we discussed that Katya mentioned at one point that Marina was immature. I think she was mature for her age just completely in a very strenuous circumstance and having to mother two kids. So um yeah and she was also in a very tumultuous marriage where she was being beaten and and so yeah there’s a lot she went through an awful lot coming to America in that whole situation when she ended up living in a in a um a house of a married couple Martin and his um wife and I forgot the wife’s name um when the wife seemed to be aware of the fact that Martin was hitting on Marina and then Later they they started having an affair but the white wife seemed to not have said anything because uh they wanted to get paid. I think they were getting considerable sum of uh thousands of dollars to host Marina and um because you know they also had children and Martin was unemployed um and I think you know they didn’t kick her out and they didn’t even let her go when when uh people were trying to say you know she has another she can she can leave separately you know both the wife and Martin said no so it it looked looked like to me that she felt completely trapped in that very very unhealthy situation when um you know a man much older than she is was was hitting on her and then ended up having an affair and the wife knew it but because of money didn’t want to um um to act on it for the time being. Right. Yep. I can understand how it was really not an easy easy for her to to handle all of this. And then she was discussing all that with the um with Katya. Um, but it it also seemed like uh um you know I think that Kata’s uh Katya’s h uh Kata’s husband needed Marina for something and so for you know for for the contracts, right? So it seemed like um even that that friend who was I think probably the only female friend she had around was not sincere either.

Well, look, I’d like to thank uh Mariana and Denise and and Paul for joining us on this episode of On the Trail of Delusion. Hopefully, we can come back soon to discuss uh Marina’s Warren Commission testimony. I think that would be another uh very, very interesting session. So, thank you very much. Thank you.