www.mattkprovideo.com/2025/01/19/delusion-episode-10-bill-brown/

On The Trail of Delusion, Episode 10, Bill Brown

This is not “my” video but I did work on it. It was created and produced by Canadian author Fred Litwin and written by Fred Litwin and Bill Brown.

Fred Litwin’s website:

www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/

Bill Brown’s Facebook discussion forum:

Tenth & Patton – The Murder Of Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit

I did the editing, title graphics and created the 2D cartoon style animated maps and diagrams using Adobe Animate ( Flash,) Adobe Photoshop and edited it all together with Adobe Premiere. Bill Brown consulted with me extensively on the information in the graphics.

DESCRIPTION OF EPISODE:

JFK Assassination expert Bill Brown discusses Lee Harvey Oswald’s murder of Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit.

On The Trail Of Delusion, Episode 11,

Fred Litwin, author of 3 books on the Kennedy assassination, discusses the Tippit case with Bill Brown.

Lifelong JFK researcher Bill Brown discusses the murder of Dallas Police Officer J. D. Tippit by Lee Harvey Oswald as he ( Oswald) tried to evade capture for the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 2025.

Bill Brown has devoured every major book and document of the Tippit case, has visited Tenth and Patton and the other major Kennedy assassination sites many times and has an encyclopedic knowledge of the case.

He cites “With Malice: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Murder of Officer J.D. Tippit ” by Dale K. Myers as his primary source of knowledge, along with “Reclaiming History” by Vincent Bulgiosi, “Case Closed” by Gerald Posner, “The Day Kennedy was Shot” by Jim Bishop, The Warren Report along with many other books and online documents.

The discussion touches on Oswald’s escape route from the Texas School Book Depository and his alleged route from his rooming house to Tenth and Patton and the Texas Theater.

The alleged timing and geographic discrepancies are also discussed. This special episode of “On the Trail of Delusion” includes never before seen aerial drone and ground footage of the Tippit death scene in Oak Cliff (Dallas) and newly created 2D animations illustrating the placement of the people involved.

Dale K. Myers website: www.jfkfiles.com/

Dale K Myers animation website: www.dalemyersanimation.com/

Vincent Bugliosi’s RECLAIMING HISTORY is available on Amazon.com.

Gerald Posner’s website: www.posner.com

TRANSCRIPT OF THIS EPISODE:

Opening Montage:
I want to thank everybody for coming this afternoon my name is Fred Litwin
Noted author Fred Litwin and of course Fred is also the author of I Was a Teenage JFK Conspiracy Freak, On the Trail of Delusion and Oliver Stones Film Flam at the Demagogue of Dealey Plaza Fred Litwin is here he’s a longtime author and certainly Watcher of politics. joining us, Fred Litwin great to have you here thank you very much
[Music]

So welcome to another edition of On the Trail of Delusion
where I try to separate fact from fiction the wheat from the chaff and give you an alternative to the conspiracy nonsense out there on YouTube
well tonight we got a really interesting show one of my JFK buddies somebody we’ve been to Dallas with we’ve been to New Orleans together
somebody who knows the assassination in and out um my friend Bill Brown Bill Brown is from Cincinnati he’s been studying the JFK assassination since 1985
after 20 years of study he started to gravitate more towards the murder of Officer JD tippet and now he’s really looking into what actually happened in oak cliff
so we’re going to talk about the murder of tippet we’re going to talk about oakcliff but we’re also going to talk about conspiracy theorists the kind of questions they ask the way
they analyze information and some of the nonsense you see on the internet
so welcome Bill
Tell me what what got you interested into the JFK assassination what got me interested was uh okay so I was in 10th Grade my sophomore year in high school and uh had study hall and every day after they took roll call if we wanted to we could go to the library and I I went to the library every day and this particular day I was uh I guess I had no homework assignments due so I was uh I was going through the uh True Crime section in the library and I just came across uh the day Kennedy was shot by Jim Bishop and I picked the book up off the shelf I started reading it I started just you know fast boarding through it and and standing right I remember I actually remember it standing right there in the library in that aisle leaning against the Shelf reading Jim Bishop’s book and I was it was gripping I was pulled in and you know the minute by- minute account the Assassins up in the window that kind of stuff and I just got hooked so I checked out the book and uh I started reading it I was reading it in class instead of paying attention to my school workor you know and uh and then the rest of this history but that’s how it got started was Jim Bishops the day Kennedy was shot you know when uh I started with the geralda Rivera show in 1975 but couple weeks after that show he did a second show and Jim Jim Bishop was on that show oh yeah okay you know he was like one of the first people on the show to really you know to to argue in favor of a lone gunman and uh okay and so I I went to the library and that was one of the first books I read as well okay good after after Mark Lane of course so rush to judgment was your first book or rush to judgment was the first book and that really got me hooked and and the the problem for me was I was in Montreal Canada and and so uh I couldn’t check any of his footnotes because no library in Montreal had the 26 volumes okay so I couldn’t you know it was frustrating because I I really wanted to check some of this stuff and I couldn’t do it and I had to wait years to finally realize oh my God his footnotes don’t really check out very well y so look let’s let’s talk a bit about JD tippet so uh you know it’s quite the mystery you know we do do we know what happened in the Mur JD tippet we do uh some conspiracy Advocates will like to argue that we don’t but we do uh the murder of JD tippet uh and oswalt’s guilt in that in that murder is a fact yeah and I I think I mean David bellan said it’s it’s the Rosetta Stone of the JFK assassination um but you know the the evidence well don’t you think the evidence is overwhelming I mean it’s pretty pretty clear is the evidence if you if you consider I witnessed testimony evidence which I do I think I think I witness testimony is evidence along with the ballistics evidence it it is overwhelming and that’s why I say that it’s a fact that Oswald murdered tippet you know if you want to argue regarding the Kennedy assassination you know maybe we should you know maybe we should say that it’s a 99% probability that Oswald murdered President Kennedy just because there’s that you got to leave that 1% or maybe even just a half a percent open uh because nobody saw I mean if I if you you want to I discount Howard Brennan okay I just I discount his testimony because I don’t know how you can do height weight from six floors below that you know there’s no way but so I’m just gonna set Brennan aside so there’s really nobody that that places oswal in the window okay uh so that’s why you got to leave that half a percent open you can’t State it’s a 100% certainty that oswal assassinated President Kennedy even though I do believe that’s exactly what happened but regarding the tippet case with all of the eyewitness testimony we have along with the physical evidence which we’ll talk about it’s undoubtedly a fact it is a fact that Lee Harvey Oswald murdered patrolman JD tippet well are did anybody see C Oswald let’s start from the depository from the time the assassination happened and let’s get into tenth and Pat yeah okay okay yeah so so the FBI the Secret Service David bellan all these guys they they wanted to see how long it would take Oswald to get from the depositor front steps the solid lines are the known roots and the broken lines the assumed routes taken by Oswald on his escape from the Texas schoolbook depository building all times are approximate according to the Reconstruction of time and events by the president’s commission oswal left the building about 12:33 p.m. 3 minutes after the assassination he walked East on Elm Street to the corner of Elm and Murphy streets a distance of 4/10 of a mile boarded a bus at 12:40 p.m. that was going West on Elm Street he remained on the bus about 4 minutes and exited between Lamar and pyra streets after traveling a little less than 2/10 of a mile walked 2/10 of a mile to where he boarded a taxi cab at 12:48 p.m. the cab followed this route over the Houston Street Viaduct turn left onto Beckley and let Oswald out near the Beckley and Neely Street intersection at 12:54 p.m. after traveling a distance of 2 and 4/10 mil Oswald had passed his rooming house by 3/10 of a mile he entered the rooming house at 1:00 p.m. and left at 10:3 p.m. zipping up his

jacket his next known location was when he shot Dallas patrolman JD tippet near tenth and patton streets at 1:16 p.m. a distance of 9/10 of a mile from his rooming house he ran West on 10th Street and turned South on Patton Street and back West on Jefferson Street Witnesses lost him here in the vicinity of a gasoline service station his jacket was later found in the parking lot behind the service station 2/10 of a mile from the tippet shooting oswal was later observed acting in a suspicious manner about 150 ft from the Texas theater and was observed entering the theater at 1:40 p.m. without pain he was apprehended in the theater 6/10 of a mile from the tippet shooting at 1:50 p.m. 34 minutes after the tippet shooting and 1 hour and 20 minutes after the assassination of President [Music] Kennedy and with the help of Cecil mcwaters who was the bus driver and William wayy who was the cab driver so they basically they have oswal leaving the depository building at 1233 three minutes after the assassination and he walks uh seven blocks East into downtown on Elm Street and he gets on Cil McWater bus now based on where mcwaters testified that the guy got on the bus because mcwaters said that he was stuck in traffic he wasn’t at a bus stop he was stuck in traffic guy bangs on the door MCU opens the door and lets him get on the bus so MCU tells us where that was so they walked they with with a with a stopwatch they walked from the depository to that point and and determined it took six and a half minutes so if we have Oswald leaving at 12:33 we have him getting on the bus between 1239 and 12:40 right MCU says that he was on the bus for no more than four minutes the bus wasn’t moving so a lady got off because she wanted she wanted to she she was worried she was going to miss her bus at the Greyhound station so a uh a lady gets off and oswal apparently decided that’s a good idea I’m going to get off too so oswal gets a transfer and we know that oswal was on that bus because he had mcw’s specific stamped bus transfer on his person when he was arrested so Oswald is on the bus for about 4 minutes and if he’s basically 12:44 he’s off the bus now he’s walking to three to four short blocks over to the Greyhound station and they determined that it was a four-minute walk to the point where Oswald boarded Way’s cab so now we have oswal getting in the cab around 1248 okay now they drove with wayy from the point Oswald entered the cab to the point Oswald got out of the cab and so Oswell gets in the cab and he tells wayy 500 North Beckley now for those who may not know uh the address of the rooming house was 1026 North Beckley so Oswell gives wayy an address for whatever reason five blocks past or five blocks south of the rooming house so when they pass the rooming house they get to the 700 block so they’re two blocks short of the original destination they’re at the 700 block which is Beckley and Neely and Oswald tells wayy this will do fine right here and oswal gets out of the cab tip you know he gave him a dollar wh says that he walked across the street wh took off basically they said that the cab ride from the Greyhound station to Beckley and Neely which is where Oswell got out of the cab was five minutes and 30 seconds they did all this with a stopwatch right okay so now you have Oswell getting out of the cab around 1253 to 1254 sometime in between there and they walked from Beckley and Neely back up to the rooming house and it was 5 minutes and 45 seconds to make that walk so we basically have oswal getting to the rooming house around 1258 to 1259 right okay we can call it 1259 now ear in Roberts the land lady she she was the housekeeper she was the housekeeper she’s in there and uh she said that uh she testified that oswal was back in his room just long enough to grab a jacket and put it on and that’s a direct quote just long enough to grab a jacket and put it on right now how long does it take to grab a jacket and put it on okay now obviously I also believe that he grabbed his revolver as well but what take five8 10 seconds so I believe you know this whole Oswald was back in his room for three four five several many few minut it’s all nonsense he was back in his room and long enough to grab a jacket and put it on so if he’s entering the rooming house at 1259 I believe he’s walking back out of the rooming house at one o’clock I I think he was back there for a minute yeah so she looks out the window she sees him standing at the bus stop that’s a last time that I was all to scene and now they basically uh and Fred you were with me back in 2020 and we walked from the rooming house to tenth and Patton and you know we’re all over 50 years old and we did it basically 12 minutes and 20 seconds um some of us did it like in 1210 some of us did it in 12:30 but basically it was like 12 minutes and 20 seconds so let’s allow a 24 24 year old fit uh marine and I say Marine because they’re always Marine there’s no such thing as a former Marine but anyway let’s just say that oswal could have walked from the rooming house arrived at tenth and Pat let’s say about 11 and a half minutes which is only 40 or 50 seconds quicker than it took us to do it okay uh I hate saying let’s just say but we have to because we know that oswal could have walked it faster than we did simply because of age if nothing else all right yeah so in my opinion oswal if if he leaves the rooming house at at 1:00 sharp he he’s at tenth and patton by 111 11130 and I say this this is for the first time because I believe oswal was walking West when he encountered tippet so in other words he was walking from the direction of marcelis walking West towards Patton on 10th so how do you get oswal walking West well Dale Myers puts forth a theory that uh so oswal is if you’re at the rooming house Oswalt has the transfer I believe oswalt’s destination in my own opinion was either the library the Jefferson Branch library or the bus stop right outside the library okay and because the transfer that Oswalt had on him that he got from mcwaters would have been good at the bus at that bus stop or the next available bus so in my opinion and oswal had I think it was like $13.87 on him after he tipped after he gave wh you know the the cfir and that would have been that was determined by bellan who looked into this that that would have been enough for him to catch a greyhound bus and get him to Loro Texas okay so in my opinion oswal leaves the rooming house stands at the bus stop momentarily outside the rooming house and then decides to walk towards the uh the Jefferson Branch Library being aware that the Marcel’s bus he could have caught a bus there point being though when when you’re on 10th Street and you’re walk and you when you’re you’re walking East on 10th there’s a 10th Street makes about a 45 degree curve about a block and a half east of tenth and patton right so Dale Myers puts forth a theory that there was a deputy a sheriff’s deputy in that vicinity when oswal reaches the curve on 10th Street as he’s walking towards the library towards the bus stop and the reason why Dale puts forth this theory is because after tippet is shot and TF Bley the citizen using the the police radio reports the shooting on tipet’s patrol car radio there is now on the Dallas County Sheriff transcripts we see where a unit 109 reports to his dispatcher a couple of minutes after the tip of shooting that he’s in the vicinity of Jefferson and marceles this is what he tells his dispatcher so the theory goes that if he’s there a couple minutes after the shooting what if he was there a couple minutes before the shooting so you have Oswald reaches that curve on 10th Street he notices and and before you reach that curve you can’t see anything East further east on 10th but once you reach that curve and you make that slight curve now A Whole New World opens up to Oswalt he can see another three or four blocks down and this is perhaps where unit 109 may have been sitting eating lunch in a parking lot or something or as police officers do they sit in their patrol cars in parking lots see it all the time so Oswald turns around now he’s walking West on 10th okay and you can walk from tenth and patton to that curve and then back to tenth and patton in about four minutes I did it myself and did it in two minutes and eight seconds from the patrol C to the curve point being you have to have oswad walking West on 10th and he can get there by 115 and the most important thing Fred is oswal doesn’t have to get to the tip and encounter early he’s just got to get there right at that Split Second to encounter tippet he doesn’t have to be there early yeah hopefully hopefully I’ve covered how Oswell gets from the depository at 12:33 to 10th and Patt at 115 yeah let me let me just ask you I mean this really interest I mean how when you started at 1233 and him you know walking have you done that walk from The Book Depository I have not okay just just wondering if all these elements how much have you tried or or done uh so I personally have walked from Beckley and neilly back to the rooming house and I did it in less than six minutes and I’ve walked from the rooming house to tenth and Patton and did it in barely over 12 minutes but I have not uh walked from the depository East on Elm to the point where Oswald got on the bus and then I’ve have not walked from the point oswal exited the bus over to the Greyhound station nor have I driven from the Greyhound station to Bey and NE we’ll have to try those on the FBI the Secret Service and the reenactments for that we’ll have to try that walk next time we’re in Dallas yeah we can we that’s something we can do absolutely you know the the other thing I mean I I was you know at I was at the Lancer conference in December I was sitting with Jerry Dy um at our table we were the S table by the way which was kind of nice he was talking about Oswald um you know back then you know there were no fences around people’s Gardens in oswal could have taken a route you know through a variety of back Gardens and I think there was a little park or something and and so uh you know we don’t really know exactly his root but there could have been shortcuts yeah but the one thing to keep in mind though if you’re at the rooming house and and anybody listening right now you can do Google Earth if you’re at 1026 North Beckley and your goal is the Jefferson Branch library and or the bus stop right outside of the library okay then the quickest route to get from the rooming house to that bus stop has you walk East on 10th Street believe it or not yeah I think I think quite possibly I mean who who we we don’t really know where Oswell is going he might have thought about the library you know well into the walk or at some point I mean I do like the idea of him hanging out in the library that would sort of be consistent I don’t actually think he was going to take a bus because um if he really thought about getting away he would have kept more money and not given a marina 170 bucks yeah you know once you get to once you buy your bus ticket to radio and you get there it’s kind of nice to have a little bit of money in Mexico yeah yeah yeah you kind of you kind of need to eat the other thing is of course um you know when Oswald was doing the walks I mean he had just killed the president he’s got all this adrenaline rushing through his body you know he’s charging you know through right through Dallas I mean he’s going to go fast he’s walking with a purpose walking with a a real purpose I mean um I I just I just don’t the other thing I want to ask you is the nature of an alibi you see this in U you know walking down the stairs in the Texas schoolbook depository and with a tipid case and people keep on trying to say oh there’s an alibi wasn’t enough time to go down the stairs no wasn’t enough time to get to tenent and patton but the real nature of an alibi is it has to be something really substantial that’s that’s you know makes it impossible for you to be there and these people are arguing about seconds when they don’t know exactly when the person started when the person ended they don’t know the speed all these variables are unknown right absolutely unknown and here’s the thing we don’t have to prove uh the unknowns all we have to do is show that he could have got to tenth and patton by5 we we don’t we don’t have toh deal with it but if we if we you know it took longer to do this it took longer to walk up Elm Street it took longer to take the cab it took longer to walk back from Beckley neilly back to the we don’t have to deal with that all we got to do is take the minimums and we can and easily get Oswald to 10th and patton walking West on 10th by the way not just east on 10th walking West on 10th by 115 yeah so yeah I anyways so clearly he got to 10th and patton so you know tip it a shot tell us a bit about the witnesses who who saw Oswald at 10th and Denver there were two fellas named Jimmy Burt and Bill Smith okay now these two guys tenth and Denver is one block east of tenth and patton okay and they’re out in the front yard this the house on the corner the I guess it would be the northeast corner of 10th and Denver Jimmy Bert notices a guy walking from east to west on 10th Street across the street from them crossing over Denver and continuing West on 10th towards Patton which would be the next block down so Jimmy Burton notices this guy walking didn’t think anything anything else of it him him and Bill Smith got ready to go inside when all of a sudden they noticed that a police car about 34s of the way down the block is now pulled over and you know how you in a neighborhood when you see a police car pull over you kind of look and watch and see what’s going on for a second Y and and so they they they saw the police car pull over and they saw uh the guy walking on the sidewalk uh talking to the police officer from the through the passenger side window and after after watching this for a few seconds they decided well we’re going to go inside so they they started to go inside and this is all from Jimmy Bert’s interview in 1968 with Al Chapman they started to go inside and that’s when they heard the gunshots ring out Jimmy Burt said he looked down the street and said hey Billy that guy just shot that police officer Bill Smith in his warning commission testimony says he looked and he said that he saw the officer fall and he said Oswald but he said he saw Oswald running from the scene and the officer fall uh but I don’t really put Bill Smith in the category of identifying oswal because he never saw the killer walking earlier like Jimmy Bert did right and he was too far away to make that kind of an identification in my opinion so uh Jimmy Bert and Bill Smith are in the front yard at 10th and Denver Jimmy Bert sees the guy walking on 10th Street and now the guy is walking uh the guy is walking West on 10th and as he gets to a certain point tippet is driving in his patrol car from the West heading east in other words driving straight towards Oswald and for whatever reason tippet felt the need to to to pull up alongside the curb and uh I’m assuming call him over and I got to tell you that tippet was unalarmed when he did this because a police officer who’s feeling like he’s about to be talking to somebody who he suspects of wrongdoing he’s not going to call him over to his patrol car because that puts the police officer in a vulnerable position okay so the simple fact that tippet my opinion called him over uh tippet really didn’t suspect I mean I don’t think tippet was thinking to himself this guy could be the guy that assassinated President Kennedy you know uh so Oswald comes over they have a conversation I guess tippet didn’t like what he was hearing or had more questions and decided finally after 10 or 15 seconds to Simply get out of the car and he gets out of the car and uh Domingo Benitas is is in a pickup truck he’s approaching he’s coming from the East driving w so he’s coming the same way oo was walking so he’s driving towards the pulled over patrol car benevita says the first thing he noticed was when he was at 10th in Denver which is a block to the east he he noticed the police car pulled over then as he starts getting so he goes through the intersection now he’s driving towards the patrol car he notices uh tippet has already gotten out of the car at this point and he wasn’t looking but he heard the gunshots and he pulls over to he swerves over to the right almost up against the curb he said I think he even said he drove up onto the curb okay he said he was about 15 feet away from the P the front of the patrol car when the shooting rings out so he he Ducks down in his truck so you have Jimmy Burt and Bill Smith are in the front yard they’re looking down the down the street you have Benitas in his pickup truck now you have Helen Markham she’s at the corner of tenth and patton she’s at the I guess that would be the northwest corner of tenth and patton walking to her bus stop so she’s CAD cornered from the inter from the corner in question but she’s watching the walking talking to the police officer she noticed the police officer you know go through the intersection she’s standing at the corner she’s watching what’s going on and uh she uh sees the uh the shooting take place she literally sees uh tippet get out she said in a relaxed manner he wasn’t alarmed uh calmly got out of the car in a friendly way and um as tippet starts to go around the front of the car when he’s at the hood that’s when Oswald backed up away from the car couple steps pulled out a revolver and shot him from across the hood so Markham is watching this happen Benitas is driving his pickup truck right towards him and swears over to the right Burton Smith are in the front yard a block down now you have William Scoggins was sitting in his cab and I’m going by these Witnesses one at a time because it’s going to matter in a second so William Scoggin is in his cab and he’s sitting there eating his lunch at the corner tin and patton now he’s on Patton facing north so he’s facing the intersection of 10th Street with Patton and he sees tippet slowly Cruise across the intersection from the West to the east right in front of his front bumper really because he’s scin is sitting almost at the stop sign right so so tippet strolls through the intersection 10 or 12 miles an hour and Scoggin noticed that two or three houses down the patrol car pulls over and uh Scoggin thinking nothing of it continues eating his lunch well all of a sudden he hears the shots and Scoggin said that he looked over and saw the officer clutch at his chest and then dropped to the ground so Scoggin actually saw tippet get out of the car and was standing and when he got shot he said he saw him clutch at his chest and uh then right there on the corner in the house right beside where Scoggin was sitting were two uh sisters-in-law Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis now they’re inside the living room I think they were putting the kids down for a nap so they were laying down with the kids well they hear the gunshots they both get up and go to the front door they’re at the screen door and Barbara Davis gets there and she says the first thing she notices was Helen Markham across the street caddy cornered from her yelling that he just shot that officer he just shot that man and then and then Barbara Davis she like refocused her attention and she notices that there’s Lee Harvey Oswald cutting across her front yard with a gun in his hand and Barbara Davis says this Virginia Davis was standing right beside her so these two girls are shoulder-to-shoulder at the screen door looking out and they see Lee Oswald cutting across their front yard uh heading right towards scan’s cab by the way skoga says he jumps the bushes onto the sidewalk onto Patton and now proceeds to go South on Patton so now you you have Burton Smith they’re down in the front yard a block like I said a block east they just see the killer going around the corner now going south on Patton you have Benitas in his truck and he’s peeping up over the dashboard and he saw the killer turn the corner to go south on Patton Markham is at the corner of tenth and Patton and she’s dropped to the ground covering her face and Killer’s going south on Patton Barber Davis and Virginia Davis saw the guy cut right across their yard obviously going south on Patton once he cut across the bushes right there and then you have Scoggins who’s gotten out of his cab at this point and he says the guy jumped the bushes and started going south on Patton now further down south on Patton you have Sam ginyard who was uh washing cars at dou Motor Company he was a porter there and he’s he’s about at the halfway point down the block between 10th Street and Jefferson he’s washing cars he hears the shots and he goes out to the sidewalk on Patton and he looks up the street towards 10th also you have Ted Callaway who is the manager of the same car lot he’s in his office he hears the shots he goes out to the sidewalk just like ginyard did and looks up the street now ginyard is at the halfway point down the block pretty close to the alley which is the back of the car lot the back of the car lot meets up with the alley right Callaway was closer down towards Jefferson he was about three4 of the way down the block so if your Oswald you just cut through the front yard there at the corner and you’re going south on on Patton now and you see these two guys looking up at you you’re going to cross the street which is exactly what osal did he doesn’t want to run past these two guys right even though he’s got a gun he still doesn’t want to go right past them so he crosses the street now he’s going south on Patton on the west side of Patton Sam ginyard uh is watching this and and uh Callaway you know we all know the story yells out to him hey man what the hell’s going on Callaway later said that he didn’t know a police officer been killed or he wouldn’t have yelled that he said he he didn’t know that he said he actually thought that oswal might have been some sort of a security officer of some sort okay so you got oswal coming down the street right here yeah okay you got Sam ginyard right there and Ted Callaway right here and os’s just right here they can easily identifying which they did do yeah okay so when I want gets into now this building see this see this Brown building across the street yeah in 1963 that that building wasn’t there it was a little two-story office building and it was a another used car lot and it was called the Johnny rolds Motor Company okay 1963 that was the Johnny rynolds Motor Company okay and there were four men in that building and they heard the shots okay you had Warren Reynolds OJ Lewis Pat Patterson and Harold Russell now these four men are in that building and they hear the shots and they’re all looking up the street all four of them see the gunman running down the street with the gun on his hand like he’s filling with it like he’s they all foresee this happening yeah when he gets to the corner they all they they said what he did was he stopped running and he tucked the revolver in his waistband and it started walk almost like a New Street New demeanor New Street New demeanor all right so LJ Lewis one of the four men did he have the jacket on he did okay he’s got the jacket on still so LJ Lewis one of the four men in this building he goes back inside to call the police okay Harold Russell second of the four men leaves the building comes up the street to see what happened up here because that’s where they heard the shots okay he goes up he goes the one block here in fact Herold Russell is on Herold Russell is on the scene when the cops arrive now the other two men here Warren Reynolds and Pat Patterson they decide they’re going to follow the guy they’re going to follow the guy okay so Oswell gets to the corner tucks The holster the revolver into his waistband and Heads This Way on Jefferson so here’s what I’m saying though so see that Santos Muffler yeah in 1963 that was a Texico station all right okay so Oswald is now going this way still has his jacket on yeah now now let me let me lay everybody out for you so Jimmy Burt and Bill Smith now reach the patrol car they’re at the patrol car now Mark’s at the patrol car Benitas is out of his truck he’s went Ben Aus has got on the mic the police mic he has now started to try to key the mic to report the shooting to the police dispatch but he didn’t know how to use the mic the police radio Okay Harold Russell’s going up the street LJ Lewis is inside called the police and then War riddles and Pat Patterson are now following the guy from like across the street so when he gets to the Santos Muffler up here was a Texico station he cuts behind the Texico station now there were two people that worked at the Texico station uh Robert Brock was a mechanic and his wife was Mary Brock they both saw the guy cut behind the the the Texico station Robert Brock was questioned by the FBI and and could not tell them yay or nay whether the man that he saw was Lee Oswell however Mary Brock his wife said yes the man I saw cut behind the gas station was Lee Harvey Oswell so she she she positively identifies Oswell as the man she saw cut behind the Texico station Jimmy Burton Smith let’s count them Jimmy Burton Bill Smith is two Benitas is three hel Markham is four Barbara Davis in Virginia Davis makes six William scan’s in his cab that makes seven Sam ginyard and T Ted Callaway make nine the four guys at the Johnny Reynolds Motor Company Harold Harold Russell Pat Patterson Warren Reynolds and LJ Lewis that makes 13 okay you have 13 people who either saw the shooting or saw the killer flee from the scene okay now let me let me take just a second to describe what each of these Witnesses said and I won’t take long yeah but okay okay so Jimmy Burt and Bill Smith both both told they didn’t go to a lineup but they told the FBI what they saw there’s FBI reports neither one of them identified oswal as the uh the killer but at the same time they didn’t say it wasn’t oswal they couldn’t say one way or the other okay Benitas at his pickup truck could not say it was oswal but but didn’t say it was an iall okay Helen Markham testified and and she actually went to a lineup that night a police lineup and picked oswal as the man she saw shoot the police officer Barbara Davis in Virginia Davis went to a police lineup that night both of them picked Oswald as the man they saw cutting across their front yard with a gun William Scoggin went to a lineup on Saturday okay and he said he picked I out of the lineup said that was the guy I saw running right towards my cab and then Sam and then Sam ginyard and Ted Callaway uh these guys are on Patton both of them went to a lineup on Friday night both of them picked Oswell at the lineup okay and then at the Johnny rids Motor Company uh Harold Russell was told the FBI because all four of these men were visited by the FBI at this Johnny rolds motor company and they they Harold Russell told the FBI that he couldn’t say for certain if it was oswal or not Warren reyolds Pat Patterson and Harold Russell did say it was oswal LJ Lewis said he wasn’t sure one way or the other so we have 13 Witnesses and you have Burton Smith and Benitas and then you have LJ Lewis at the John RS Motor Company these four people weren’t sure one way or the other whether the killer was oswal but the other nine either went to a lineup or told the FBI in a photo lineup That oswal was the man they saw either shooting the police officer or running from the scene so you have 13 people nine people said it was Oswald four weren’t sure and zero out of the 13 said it was not Oswald what about what about Clemens so it could be debatable whether Clemens is even a witness you know she she said when she heard the uh when she heard the shots she At first she thought they were firecrackers so she was inside her house you see the interview with Mark Lane she’s inside the house she goes out I I don’t consider Clemens a witness and the reason why is because we don’t hear from her until after the fact and and I discount any witness I I don’t I don’t rely on Jack Tatum who said he drove by before the shots rang out and says it was Oswald says he even remembers the the the curl of his upper lip or the curl of his smile the way you know but I don’t rely on Tatum because it’s after the fact I I I personally try to stick with uh that weekend and the initial month or two afterward because the witnesses at the Johnny RS Motor Company they were interviewed by the FBI in January so you know six seven weeks later almost two months later almost but we don’t hear from Markham uh Mark Lane and Clemens mean Clemens yeah we don’t hear from Clemens yeah uh Mark Lane one minute he says you know we have this witness that the FBI is declined to interview and uh the next minute you know he says they interviewed her but ignored her you know he’s he’s all he’s all over the map we don’t really need to get into Mark Lane and his lies and the way he twist things around but personally for me Fred since you brought her up I don’t really consider Helen Mark of a witness and only reason why and it’s not because of what she had to say it’s just because we don’t hear from her no that’s really I I think that’s that’s entirely right but but uh isn’t it amazing I mean all the witnesses you you talked you talk about only saw one man do the shooting not that’s a great Point that’s a great point so you know you could argue that the four guys at the Johnny Reynolds Motor Company Harold Russell Pat Patterson LJ Lewis and and Warren Reynolds they didn’t see the killing they just saw a guy running down pattent with a gun but you you can’t say they saw the killer because they didn’t see the killing but they did see the killer because they saw the same guy yeah that that Ted Callaway and Sim ginyard are right there on the sidewalk on Patton they’re the guy run de so these guys at the Johnny rynolds Motor Company saw that same guy that that Callaway and ginyard saw and we know that Callaway and ginyard saw the killer because they they saw the same guy that Helen Markham saw and Markham did see the killer right so so it’s one person I mean they tried to say Clemens said there were two two two killers or two know here’s the thing though Clemens ailla Clemens doesn’t even say that she she doesn’t even say that that the two guys are even associated with each other that’s just a spin the Mark Lane put on it it’s it’s the same thing with Lee Bowers right he saw two guys two cars driving you know behind the behind the fence in the parking lot but he actually said they weren’t associated with the right exactly yeah and he saw two two two men at the mouth of the underpass you know these two men didn’t know each other yeah I mean uh so anyway so look what’s the controversy here seems pretty clear well you know what the as far as the controversy goes listen to this and and I compare this to to the the 911 attack the World Trade Centers of New York City just because people question the evidence does not automatically mean that the evidence itself is questionable so just because people want to uh question whether 911 was an inside job it doesn’t really mean it’s questionable it didn’t happen you can question it but it doesn’t make it questionable so you you can you can question whether oswal murdered tippet you can question the evidence you can question the eyewitness identifications and you can question the ballistic evidence you can question it all you want to but just because you’re questioning it does not mean it’s questionable it’s not questionable question it all you want it still isn’t questionable does that make sense yeah I I it makes sense I mean I you know I mean conspiracy theorists these days they they try to use a variety of tricks to sort of explain away the evidence number one they’ll they’ll use chain of custody or they’ll use legal arguments that that you know this is not admissible in a court of law I mean they they they have various tricks where they because they know the evidence is so damning yeah so but there there’s no issue with the chain of custody so let let’s let’s talk about the showcasing since you brought up chain of custody okay after he fired the shots the the Oswald is literally removing shells out of the revolver my opinion because he wants to reload because he doesn’t know if around the next corner there’s G to be another police officer right why why wouldn’t you want to reload I would yeah so he’s he’s he’s reloading he’s he’s removing spent showc casings he throws them on the ground Benitas says that uh benus is in his pickup truck right there 15 feet away he says after firing the shots the Killer and I when I’m talking about Benitas I’ll say the killer because Benitas didn’t identify Oswalt okay so Benitas says the killer backed up onto the sidewalk and took off for the corner throwing couple shells down as he did and then he gets to the corner and he throws two more shells down so four showcases were found at the scene we’ll call shells number one and two we’ll call these the Benitas shells because Benitas after everything’s settled down he gets the police are on the scene he goes over to where he saw the killer throw a couple shells down and he picks them up and turns them into officer Joe Poe who was right there at the scene right now the third shell casing we’ll call this shell number three Barbara Davis found a shell lying next to the bushes next to her house and she calls over Captain Dodie who’s who’s the captain of the crime lab he’s the head of the crime lab he comes over picks up the showcasing that’s showcasing number three picked up by Captain Dodie as pointed out to him by Barbara Davis right so about an hour or two after everybody left it’s starting to get dark it’s about 5:00 pm 6 PM uh Virginia Davis Barbara Davis’s sister-in-law she finds a shell casing outside Barbara Davis calls the Dallas Police Department and says hey my sister found another shell casing so the Dallas Police Department they sent out detective dhy and brown to pick up the showcasing and while they were there there they took the two girls to headquarters to go attend the lineup which they attended and picked Oswell so we have these four showc casings shells one and two are the Benitas po shells shell three is Barbara Davis shell four is Virginia Davis K Killian Cunningham Frasier and niichel are the four firearms experts three of them with the FBI nickel with the state of Illinois well they they they fired test rounds out of oswal’s revolver the revolver taken from him when he was arrested for comparison for ballistic comparisons and they determined through ballistic testing that these four shell casings that were found at the scene they linked all four of these experts independent of each other right they were able to link these four shell casings found at the scene to the revolver taken from Oswald when he was arrested inside the theater to the exclusion of every other weapon in the world okay so we know that Oswald was in possession of the weapon that was responsible for the showcasing SP of the scene of where tippet was murdered okay uh as far as chain of custody there there’s no issue whatsoever with the chain of custody of the shells three and four Barbara Davis turned over she found a shell on the ground Captain Dodie comes over and then uh sh number four detective DH so the FBI visited these two guys in uh May or June of 64 right and they presented Dodie and dhy with all four shell casings and they said are any of these particular four showcasing a shell that you handled that day both dhy and Dodie identified the showcasing they handled which was shell three and shell four okay so even if you want to question the chain of custody of shells one and two which I still think that is intact as well okay uh the chain of custody for shells three which is the captain Dodie shell and shell four which is the detective DH shell is 100% Ironclad there’s no problem whatsoever and I and I’ve never had any conspiracy Advocate spill out exactly what is the problem with the chain of custody of those two shells and the bottom line is those two shells were B link were were ballistically linked to the revolver taken from isall to the exclusion of any other weapon in the world right there there’s no chain of custody issue with shells three and four I I think conspiracy theories well we don’t know exactly when when those those shells were fired from the from the gun but but they’re bringing up questions that aren’t even rais at a trial right yeah the defense doesn’t even want to argue that because the defense doesn’t want the grand the jury to notice that the defense is for whatever reason trying to get these shells thrown out the defense doesn’t want the jury to think why is the defense trying so hard to get these jur these showc casings thrown out as evidence right first of all that would have even happened anyway because there would have been an evidentiary hearing before the trial and the and basically at the evidentiary hearing Dodie and dhy would have authenticated shell number three and shell number four so then once that happens once you go to trial the defense isn’t going to question that evidence because it’s already been dealt with at the evidential hearing so you’re not even doing this in front of the jury anyway right did I don’t know if you saw if you if you go to the Ruby trial how they got in Ruby’s they introduced Ruby’s gun into the trial all they had was the police officer who took it off him right identifi the gun that was it that’s that’s exactly right right and here’s there nothing else that was the way they do things in 1964 let’s take the jacket for example they like to argue you know you know the jacket that was found behind the Texico station they like to argue about you know the uh there’s no chain of custody for this jacket and a little bit later we’ll explain why the jacket is damning towards oswalt’s guilt but for now let’s let’s just talk about the jacket regarding this whole chain of custody issue had there been a trial in 1964 Bill Alexander would have went to the Dallas Police Department and he would have said who found the jacket they would have said Westbrook Westbrook’s the one that picked it up from underneath the car they would have went to West Brook and said you picked up the jacket from underneath the car he says yes who’d you give it to he would have said officer X they then would have went to officer X and said what did you do with the jacket once Westbrook gave it to you he says well I took it to headquarters and turned it over to officer y in the crime lab you know point being had there been a trial they would have found out who officer X and officer y were yeah and then somebody reading about that particular Tri let’s say this had nothing to do with the assassination of the president let’s say this was a guy who killed a cop and you read about this trial 60 years later you’re going to read about the trial and you’re going to be like well there’s no chain of custody problems with the jacket because Westbrook turned it over to Jones who turned it over to Smith okay that’s it that’s how it works but but was that what’s that jacket Oswald’s what about the color but real quick though because there was no trial yeah it never was determined who officer X and who officer y were because there was no need to do it now so therefore 60 years later we don’t have a chain of custody for the jacket and we don’t but that doesn’t mean anything at all because in 64 there would have been it would have been put in place that’s a really good point that’s a very good point right and was that jacket Oswald’s so here’s the thing so uh Sam ginyard actually now he was on he was the porter washing cars and he’s standing on uh the sidewalk on Patton he was shown warrant commission exhibit 162 which is the jacket during his Warren Commission testimony and stated matter of factly that that is the jacket that I saw Lee Oswald wearing as he was running down pat right uh Marina Oswald during her testimony and this is important because ginyard saw the jacket only long enough to watch the killer run down Patton even though again he says that that is the jacket but Marina Oswald testified she was sborn commission exhibit 162 and asked if it belonged to Lee she said one word yes that jacket that was found behind the Texico station belonged to Lee Oswald and here’s the thing too ering Roberts the housekeeper she said that Oswald came in was back in his room just long enough to grab a jacket and put it on then went back out the front door zipping it up as he went out the door all right she she even told a radio station in an interview that afternoon that he left wearing a short Gray coat now forget tenth and patton forget the murder of Officer tippet okay let’s deal with the fact that Lee Harvey Oswalt is seen on Je Boulevard ducking into the the the shoe store entrance right to most likely avoid police cars on Jefferson Johnny Brewer testified to the warrant commission what the guy was wearing and he describes the guy you know his height weight the color of his pants he was asked specifically was he wearing a jacket he said no okay he also testified I’m sorry he gave an affidavit a same day affidavit when he described what the killer was wearing now this was months and months before his testimony this was the weekend of the killing he signs an a he gives an affidavit and in the affidavit he describes what the guy was wearing and he describes the shirt in detail making no mention he describes the guy’s pants his shirt his height his weight makes no mention of a jacket right right then he testifies months later he’s asked if the guy’s wearing the jacket he says no so the point being forget tenth and patton forget tippet say never happened why did Lee Harvey Oswald get rid of the jacket that he had on when he went out the front door of the rooming house on Beckley between that point and the time that he’s seen by Johnny Brewer on Jefferson why why did he get rid of that jacket and and nobody has ever made any sense of that one because they know what it means for Oswell to get rid of his jacket they know what it means and they don’t want to deal with it what about wasn’t there a jacket found in the Texas School Book Depository yeah the darker one yeah so yeah like 10 days later that that was his jacket and that that the other one couldn’t have been his well actually Marina said Marina actually testified that he owned two jackets so there was like the dark blue one found in the depository and then the light gray one found you know behind the Texico station by the way one more thing about the jacket so uh there was an FBI report saying that microscopic fibers were found in the sleeves of the jacket right okay and the when when you compare microscopic fibers for forensic testing you do so based on three characteristics color shade and twist okay now the shirt that osal was wearing when he was arrested in the theater they removed test fibers from that shirt for forensic comparison purposes the the test fibers removed from oswalt’s shirt had the exact same color shade and twist as the microscopic fibers that were found in the sleeves of the jacket okay so that tells us that it doesn’t tell us as a fact that oswal was wearing that jacket just because he was wearing that shirt but what it does tell us is whoever was wearing that jacket was wearing a shirt exactly like Oswald’s right okay coincidentally the rifle found up on the sixth floor of the school Book Depository the rifle used to assassinate President Kennedy they removed microscopic fibers from there was a crevice between the metal butt plate and the wooden stock and there were microscopic fibers wedged inside that crevice they take they took these fibers they also compared these fibers to the fibers removed from oswal’s rest shirt same thing they had the same color they had the same shade and same twist and that’s all you can that’s all you can compare is those three things you can’t compare anything more it’s color shade and twist and that’s it but they had the same three they had the same color shade and twist as the arrest shirt the fibers that were found in the crevice of the rifle between the butt plate and the wood wooden stock wow okay um okay so that that’s all convincing but what about the bullets the mismatch bullets the shells oh the mismatch okay so uh yeah so the the four shells found at the scene uh two were two of the showc casings were Winchester Western shells and two of the showc casings were Remington Peters okay now these These are the four showc casings found at the scene but tippet tippet had four bullets removed from his body at the autopsy and these were three Winchester Western bullets and one Remington Peters bullet so you have three Winchester Western bullets one Remington Peters bullet but you have two Winchester Western casings and two Remington Peters so there there’s a mismatch there now JC day I believe it was JC Day first put forth the idea when he when he was uh trying to put all this together he says well what if there was a fifth shot that missed tippet what if oswal fired five shots and what if the bullet that missed was never recovered never found and what if the one so ell is throwing five showcasing to the ground not just four right what if that fifth showcasing was never found now if that fifth showcasing that was never found is a Remington actually the fifth showcasing if if that fifth showcasing is a Winchester Western showcasing now we have three Winchester Western showcasing not just the two and if that fifth bullet that was never found let’s say that’s a Remington Peters bullet now we have two Remington Peters bullets not just the one removed from tibet’s body so if that’s the case now you have five showcasing and five bullets you have three Winchester Western shells and two Remington Peter shells and you have three Winchester Western bullets and two Remington Peter’s bullet so all all that has to happen and it’s a very plausible scenario all that has to happen is that one showcasing was not found and one bullet was never recovered and also I got to tell you the four showcases that were found were found close to the corner of tentin and patton well the four guys at the Johnny Reynolds Motor Company one of them said that he thought that he saw the guy toss a shell down this will be all the way down by the corner of Patton and Jefferson oh I see yeah well that’s interesting so okay I was I was wondering if we should take a metal detector the next time we go down exactly the shell casing or the missing bullet wouldn’t that be something now the bullet though you know and I don’t know if if you know if you go to a shooting range and you fire a 38 I’m going to tell you right now and I’ve been there you can miss from eight or nine feet it is not hard to do and especially if you’re trying to hurry to get the drop on a police officer maybe that first shot is the one that missed Y no absolutely so okay so we we the evidence is pretty clear-cut um but may maybe it wasn’t household Maybe was Larry card who did the shooting because he looked like Oswald yeah you know you know what’s what’s funny is the people who want to argue I’ve always found this funny anyway the people who want to argue that Larry card was the killer uh there’s a f so Larry card actually hit shik to Michigan after the assassination he he basically bailed he bailed Dallas and got out of there the FBI tracked him down in Michigan they took a picture of him he’s wearing a light tan jacket so if it’s Larry kafar what about I mean he’s wearing the jacket it’s not his jacket I I just think it’s kind of funny to tie try to tie that in but uh but let me tell you this anybody that knows about Larry kafara read his testimony he was asleep at the time of the assassination okay that’s right the yeah the bartender comes in and wakes him up to tell him about the assassination so if if if you’re Larry cfar and you’re supposed to be so those who argue that card killed tippet what’s their point what are they getting at exactly because are they saying that card was in on the plot to what exactly was he supposed to kill tippet for what reason point being why is he asleep at 12:35 1240 if he’s supposed to be killing tippet in half an hour well they’d say that that that that Andy uh Andy Armstrong got it all wrong um and that um you know look they don’t logic is not their strong point yeah um but they St they’re caught they know that there’s a lot of witnesses who identify Oswald so the only out is okay here’s somebody who looks like Oswald although yes you know it’s questionable how much he looked like Oswald yeah but you know you can talk about Larry cardo all you want still can’t answer the question of why did oswal ditch’s jacket between the rooming house and Jefferson Boulevard the shoe store yeah that’s unrelated to card yeah it’s it’s to me it’s ridiculous because card is uh you know he’s the kind of guy who couldn’t hold down a job he was a Drifter and and uh he had told Jack Ruby a few weeks earlier he wanted to leave uh Ruby said convince him to stay for a little bit and then the time was right A lot of people were getting out of Dallas then so he got out of Dallas and went to visit his sister in Michigan right um you know it’s not it’s not that mysterious you know no there’s nothing mysterious about it whatsoever and and literally there’s no reason there’s zero reason to suspect card in the shooting of tippet there’s no reason whatsoever to suspect that they’re they’re just picking names just like eigor vagin evolve you know they’re just picking names and they’re throwing them at tenth and Pat and and none of it holds any weight whatsoever and let me tell you this if Larry kaard killed tippet how did he get the revolver back into oswal’s Hands by the time oswal arrested inside the movie theater because that’s the revolver that fired those showcases right well it was planted on Oswald right in the theater yeah yeah exactly so that that’s just a matter of conspiracy Advocates not accepting the evidence really they don’t like what the evidence shows so they don’t accept it and they want to question it and all these things that you see these conspiracy Advocates do on all these internet forums and these Facebook groups a defense attorney is not doing it a trial right defense attorney is not challenging the chain of custody of the showcasing at a trial because they’ve already been admitted as evidence and the evidence you’re hearing yeah no I always thought it was a good point that if you keep on harking on some of that evidence then the jury is going to wonder why are you exactly why are you so interested in that evidence you must think it’s really damning absolutely absolutely uh and one of the uh one of the things that that I think is important to discuss the conspiracy people like to argue that uh uh tippet was killed at a point in time too early for osal to have reached tenth and patton um and they say the shooting occurred before 110 you know you see that argument made all the time but here’s the thing and let me bear with me on this because I got I gotta explain it slowly yeah okay so tfboy pulls up on the scene right and he gets out and he goes over to the patrol car he sees Benitas fumbling around with the mic the police mic he takes it from Benitas he says benus didn’t know how to work it so he takes it from benus and he reports the shooting to the dispatcher now this is done at 117 okay TF let me say that again TF Bly reports the shooting on the police on the according to the police tapes at 117 all right now when Bly reports the shooting you can you can listen to it for yourself and the the uh the dispatcher ask where he says on 10th Street between marcelis and Beckley which is a pretty wide range he didn’t know exactly where he was you know but he knew he was on 10th Street and he was between marcelis and Beckley so what happens when he says that the dispatcher Murray Jackson the first thing Jackson does is he calls out for 78 he’s looking for a response from tippet because he knows that’s where tippet is supposed to be in that vicinity he calls out for 78 he gets no response he calls out for 78 again point being this is the moment that Murray Jackson realized that JD tippet has been shot at 117 okay right now keep that in mind for a second now Mary Wright was in her house located on the corner of tenth and Denver a block east of the shooting scene she said she heard the shots and she told Georgia Patricia Nash in 1964 that she immediately that’s quote immediately called the police so Mary Wright calls the police immediately after hearing the shots Barbara Davis goes to the front door Sees the killer cutting across the yard goes back in side and calls the police okay LJ Lewis is a block South at the Johnny Reynolds Motor Company right that he’s one of the four guys who sees the killer going south on Patton with a gun in his hands he goes back inside and calls the police so you have these three people calling the police now how long do you think it takes from the time a person picks up the phone and dials the operator now back in 1963 there was no 911 they pick up the phone they call the operator they operator answers they I need the police department operator transfers them to the police department the person at the police department answers the phone hey I just saw a guy get shot the the person at the police department asks where they give the location that the person using the phone calling it in gives the location the person at the police department makes a note of the location and the type of offence and puts it on a conveyor Bel which goes straight to the dispatcher the dispatcher gets this notice and he is able to read what’s happened and he’s able to immediately on the police radio inform all units in the area what’s just happened and where okay how long do you think all that takes from the time a person picks up the phone to call the police to the time the dispatcher receives it minute and a half maybe I mean probably quicker much quicker yeah yeah I think probably 45 seconds but I’m trying to be generous okay here’s the point Mary Wright called the police immediately Barbara Davis called the police a few seconds after the shots LJ Lewis called the police a few seconds later at 117 Murray Jackson is being made aware for the very first time that tippet has been shot by TF B’s report using tippa patrol car radio so we know that Mary Wright Barber Davis and OJ Lewis called the police at like 116 because if they would have called earlier if the shooting would have ured earlier and they would have called earlier then Murray Jackson would have already known about it by the time TF Bley is talking to him on Tippets squad car radio do you understand the point that I’m making yeah yeah I understand so the simple point that Jackson is unaware of the shooting until Bly lets him know at 117 that tells you that Mary Wright Barbara Davis and OJ Lewis called the police around 116 117 and we know they called the police right away so the shooting occurred at 115 the shooting did not occur at 110 and it take these people seven minutes to call the police because they tell you they did it immediately another thing too Ted Callaway he he’s on he here’s the shots he goes out to the sidewalk and he’s on Patton he’s looking up the street he sees the killer coming down Patton get to the corner and start going West on Jefferson now he’s standing the whole time watching this okay and you can read Callaway’s testimony he tells you what he did he says after he went around the corner on Jefferson I made a good hard run that’s a direct quote a good hard run up to the corner of Ten and Patton and over to the patrol car now let’s say the shots ring out Ted callway here’s the shots he goes over to the sidewalk and let’s say it takes 30 seconds he looks up the street and sees the killer at the corner of tenth and patton let’s say it takes another minute and a half for the killer to go from tenth and patton to to Patton and Jefferson that’s two minutes let’s say Callaway then makes this good hard run up to the patrol car maybe a minute and a half maybe so we’re talking about three and a half minutes after he hears the shots Callaway’s at the patrol car because Callaway after Bly not knowing B had already done it Callaway gets on the patrol car radio and he informs the dispatchers been a shooting and Callaway is the one where Murray Jackson says we’ve already received we’ve already received that information please remain off the air okay thing is Callaway his report to Murray Jackson is at 119 oh wow okay when you put all this together it’s very clear the shooting occurred around 115 not before 110 right right there’s no way there’s no way and for some reason conspiracy Advocates will not use their head and listen to reason because rer Craig said it was at 106 yeah you want me to talk about that so so Roger Craig real quick uh is not credible and the reason why he’s not credible there’s many reasons actually but one of the biggest reasons why is because in 1968 he was interviewed for the Free Press along with pen Jones they’re giving this interview they’re talking about the tippet shooting Roger Craig States in this interview that the tippet shooting occurred at 145 pen Jones corrects him says no it’s a 115 Roger Craig says oh is that right okay so Roger Craig accepts the correction one as the shooting occurred at 115 in other words Roger Craig had no idea before giving this interview in 1968 what time the tip of shooting occurred right now here’s the thing so that’s 1968 and in the early 70s Roger Craig is now writing his manuscript when they kill a president in this manuscript which he’s no doubt trying to sell he talks about how he’s in D Plaza and he hears a nearby Radio of of a police motorcycle mentioned the shooting of a police officer in Oak Cliff Craig says he looks down at his watch and his watch said 106 okay so in 1968 he has no idea what time tipet was shot but all of a sudden in 1972 he remembers it was 106 come on well memory improved yeah exactly exactly it’s ridiculous and that’s not even talking about the fact that Craig says he saw 7.5 7.65 Mouser on the rifle and Mouser doesn’t even stamp the rifle 7.65 well but he but he did see Oswald get into the uh into the uh the station wagon well come on Fred don’t you know the only way for an assassin to escape the scene is to have a shrill whistle and jump in a station wagon as it’s stuck the corner for the station wagon it’s like that’s the that’s the only way to get away it’s the most logical way to get away and and it was Ruth Payne’s car exactly yeah yeah yeah Roger Craig says that Oswald said keep her out of this she had nothing to do with this or something like that so you know let me ask you I mean you know we we we know what happened with the tipid case but you know you’ve been studying this for a long time I mean talk a bit about your experiences in debating conspiracy theorists and some of their tactics okay well the what what I’ve come across the biggest tactic is uh to question the evidence I think that’s the single biggest thing they do and the reason they do this is because they know the evidence points to Oswald and nobody else and that’s both for the Kennedy assassination and the tip of shooting let’s talk about the Kennedy assassination for a second yeah there were two fragments that were found inside the limo commission exhibits 567 and 569 these two fragments were large enough for ballistic testing okay these two fragments were linked to OS W’s rifle to the exclusion of any other weapon in the world right these two fragments are from the head shot so Oswald’s rifle fired the shot that hit President Kennedy in the head we can’t say Oswald fired it it’s kind of ridiculous to you know but okay they want to make us say that we can’t say it was Al well that’s fine but it was his rifle okay and he and he did carry a package to work that morning large enough to contain a rifle so uh the answer here to question my opinion that single biggest thing they do is they they simply try to dismiss the evidence because they know what the evidence says yeah I mean you know it used to be in the 1970s well before when I was getting into it but in the 60s and 70s when people were arguing about the 26 volumes that they would use the 26 volumes and find the little pieces of evidence that would support their Theory but they were at least using the 26 volumes you could disagree on the interpretation but now what they’re doing is like I said they’re just throwing out the evidence we have to we have to get rid of it you know it’s illegitimate and and so it’s just the opposite of what they used to argue um in the 60s and 70s and the thing about it is you can also use this to determine which conspiracy Advocates that you’re debating with on whether they want to be honest or not okay because when you have a conspiracy Advocate who so so when I say why did oswal leave the rooming house wearing a jacket and then he’s seen by John Brewer and front of Hardy shoe stores on Jefferson with no jacket forget tenth and patton forget JD tippet why did he get rid of his jacket between the rooming house and the shoe store when I say that they have they have two choices they can say man that’s a good question I don’t know why he would have done that for I still don’t think he shot tip it but I don’t know why he would have done that for let’s try to deal with that they can either take that stance which is an honest reply right or they can take the the nonsensical stance that we don’t even know Oswald left in a jacket could have been a shirt Roberts was blind blah blah blah so and it’s not it’s not a jacket it’s a coat yeah yeah yeah so those those who question that he even left the rooming house in the first place in a jacket those are the ones I know that they’re they’re not being honest they’re just playing they’re playing trial games they’re playing defense attorney games they don’t care and I’m not GNA name names I’m not goingon to give them the pleasure but they don’t care about being truthful and honest they just are online to play games yeah yeah you know I’m I’m in the middle right now of a of of a discussion on Twitter with the uh producer of Rob riner’s uh podcast series and he’s he’s a meathead yeah and his his he throw he does not accept the otopsi x-rays and photographs because um because George joanes tainted the whole HSC uh investigation in his View and so when you taint the whole investigation everything gets thrown out yeah and so he throws out the autopsy X-rays and photos and and and of course he only wants to rely upon the Parkland doctors and the blowout in the back of the head yeah yeah but you know the autopsy photos and x-rays were authenticated by those who took them yep 66 or 67 they they viewed the autopsy photos and x-rays and they said that that is a accurate representation of what I saw that day yeah I even I even countered with the fact that John Stringer the autopsy photographer he wrote a book and if you go to his book and he says the the photograph of the brain that’s the brain that was removed the night of the autopsy right right and and of course that the they H they can’t accept the brain because the left hemisphere of JFK’s brain is intact perfectly intact so no bullet fired from the front or the right front would have left it intact absolutely so they have to argue that it’s it’s it’s a fake brain it’s somebody else’s brain it’s not legit not to mention that the the uh the fragment Trail was from back to front and and you know the church committee uh all all of these the house select committee on assassinations investigation the Rockefeller commission they all determined that the president was struck as far as the head goes only once from above and behind nothing about a shot from the right front which is where the grassy no was yeah that’s every single forensic ologist has said the same thing even s now sir eventually changed his mind but what I find interesting about W is that he never told us why he changed his mind we know why he changed his mind because it was under pressure from the other conspiracy theorists who were pissed off that he was saying the shot was from behind you know but I I mean I’ve published letters that that W wrote in the 1970s to Sylvia Mah and another critic saying the left hemisphere of the brain is intact he couldn’t have been shot from the front correct correct um but you know why rely on Forensic Pathologists when you could Dr Mantic exactly or Dr agular an opthalmologist right they know better but you know putting that aside for a second the simple matter of those who have never been there and they want to argue how there was a a shooter from behind the fence to them they’ve seen all the uh aftermath photos of dly Plaza and and they don’t realize though that when you’re up there behind that fence the whole half of Dallas is wide open to you back there it only looks like it’s behind offence if you’re looking at it from Elm Street point being what I’m trying to say is an assassin never would have chosen that location right that wouldn’t would not have been something they chose it would have been from one of the buildings and that and and that would have been only from above and behind yeah absolutely and and and I mean as you know I mean daily plazs is a small place to think that there’s multiple assassins firing from all these different directions and and no fragments no shells nothing is recovered um anyways it’s all ridiculous yeah the the the only evidence recovered points to Oswald and that’s the three showcasing up on the sixth floor and his rifle uh so that’s why we have to argue about the chain of custody of the rifle and the order forms and did he really order it and the backyard photographs are you know that that that’s where this all leads to yeah regarding regarding the order forms for the revolver used in the tippet shooting uh kigan and Cole the two handwriting experts testified that PO Box 2915 in Dallas the the application for the post office box is in oswal’s handwriting okay and also the order form used for the revolver it was ordered under the name AJ hadel that was an os’s handwriting also there’s another signature I don’t know if you know this or not a fell named DF ddle now this was a witness on the order form because the order had to have a witness attesting to the person trying to buy the weapon is indeed a US citizen right okay and is not a felon so DF ddle is this witness saying that AJ hadel is a US citizen and not a felon well Cole said that the DF drle and kigan the DF drle was also in oswal’s handwriting so you had the handwriting experts basically telling you that oswal filled out the order for him under the name hadel right right and he told and he and he told Fritz that he ordered the revolver from Fort he got the revolver in Fort Worth but we know because of the order forms that we know oswal wrote he ordered from seport traders in Los Angeles and the same goes with the rifle the same thing so yeah the same goes with the rifle and that’s why they but they have to go through hoops to try and prove that Oswell didn’t order the rifle and and the rifle was you know was the the backyard photographs were faked they’ll do whatever they can to get rid of that rifle because it’s so damning do you know that and I know you know this but you know that when you talk about the Kennedy assassination I well there’s not one person that says oh lee was standing beside me how could he have done this he was standing beside me when the assassination happened yeah there’s not one person that says that not oswal had zero Alibi okay there’s not one person probably the most like we talked about the other night probably the most political employee in the entire School Book Depository building and he’s not outs side watching the President of the United States come by this guy he has he shows no interest after it happens like what’s going on yeah exactly exactly he doesn’t ask he does yep he doesn’t ask wayy in the cab and he doesn’t ask Gan Roberts who’s trying to get you know the TV come in look at news of the assassination he doesn’t ask her at all he doesn’t care because he already knows what happened yeah he knows what happened he saw it through the scope yeah I mean it’s just incredible okay look before we go any any last comments and thoughts about um the JFK assass are you looking forward to uh all the new documents that are going to come out once Trump is President it’s going to be it’s there’s nothing I mean come on you know and you know what’s funny about the documents is that if there were incriminating documents we would those things would have been long destroyed so so it’s a mot point one way or the other anyway no I know I know I mean I have to laugh that RFK Jr now wants his daughter-in-law to become head of the CIA so she could find all those documents boy I me I hope it happens actually because I think he’s in for a shock when he finds out all the redactions when they’re released relate to the Cold War right exactly and nothing to do with the assassination right well RFK Jr I mean not not to get on that subject but but it kind of is related to the Kennedy assassination in one way because if Oswald was to come back from the grave if Lee Harvey Oswell comes back from the grave and he goes to all these conspiracy Advocates all over the world and says what are you guys talking about I shot John Kennedy they still wouldn’t believe him they still wouldn’t believe you and we know this how do we know this I know this for a fact and and that fact is that Sirhan Sirhan in a televised interview with Robert Frost I think it was 88 or 89 or something David Frost David Frost I said Robert Frost so he’s in a televised interview with David Frost and in this interview not only does he admit that he killed Bobby Kennedy but he explains in complete detail his motive for doing so yet there are still hundreds of thousands and hundreds of thousands of people on the internet that say that Siran Sirhan did not kill Bobby Kennedy yet he’s telling you he did and he’s explaining why he did it so they wouldn’t accept either if come part is that they want him to be released they want to throw him a big party if he got released I mean it’s just completely obscene right you know they they can’t accept the fact that a communist killed Kennedy and a Palestinian Israel hater killed RFK right exactly that’s exactly right can’t accept that yep they wanted to be the lady in the polka dot dress or something you know well they they want to be at some right-winger they wanted to be a right winger who who killed Kennedy and RFK because they’re going to usher in a new world of peace and and and and day taunt and whatever you know this right it’s just all nonsense regarding my last words I would just say this and let me think of how to say this uh if you’re going to believe in a conspiracy in the assassination of President Kennedy or you’re gonna believe that someone besides Oswald killed JD tippet then you if you’re gonna believe it then you’re gonna do so without any physical evidence suggesting so okay because all of the physical evidence points only to Oswalt there’s no physical evidence that points anywhere else I’m not even talking about eyewitness testimony we’re just talking about physical evidence right so if you’re going to believe that Kennedy was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy or tippet was killed by somebody other than Oswell then you’re choosing to believe so without the benefit of the physical evidence and why would you do that good point yeah that’s a good point well look great to talk to you Bill it’s been a great discussion um thanks for appearing on on the trail of delusion and um we’ll be having some panel discussions coming up so you’ll be part of our panel discussions and uh that’ll be a lot of fun too so thank you very much panel discussion will be a lot of fun i’ be i’ be down for that for sure okay good so take care I’ll see you later bye FR yeah thanks a lot man [Music]